Question by Geηηa: Training your dog by negative reinforcement?
I want to get peoples thoughts on using this type of training. People like Greekman talk a lot about compulsion when training a dog.
Why is it important to use compulsion to train/proof your dog?
Do you use it on your dog?
When the term is heard most around here it would mean a physical correction to the dog – leash correction etc.
It is a correction given to the dog.. anything from saying ‘stop’ to using an e-collar. Punishment for bad behavior or disobedience.
That’s the bare basics of it.
Best answer:
Answer by Lexi
Please difine compulsion. I’ve never heard this term used.
Thank you.
I have seen dog’s who have had this type of training. Yes, they are trained, but they are trained with fear. You can see it in their eyes. They respond to commands slower than those who have not been trained this way. I could see where you might start training this way, and then convert to reward training to older dogs who don’t listen or respond first off with reward training, aggresive dogs (which might actually hurt the agression problem), etc. (or if you are a little woman and you are trying to start training, say a pit, that is pulling, etc, and not paying attention to the treat being offered).
And of course, if you are training for protection, you might want to train this way, to bring out more aggressive behavior.
But I the dogs with the best training that I have ever seen, have been based on rewards. These dogs LOVE being loyal. You can see it in their eyes that they WANT to work for you.
My father has trained his dog with negative’s, and that dog is trained, but that dog will do whatever he can get away with.
My dog’s reward trained (which we are still working on and due to medical issues, currently I can’t get out and practice with her), but she WANTS to do everything that she has learned for me.
Also, I have ‘spanked’ my dog just like I would a child, when she has gotten in trouble. It embarrasses her more than hurts her I think, because she will turn her back to me, and look at me with these sad eyes and lay her ears back. I think that I started out when she was a puppy with a rolled up magazine, where it made more of a noise than anything else.
She is three years old, and rarely gets into trouble.
And even now that we have a puppy, when the puppy knocks over the trash can, or steals a baby diaper to chew on, Sissy will look at me, and look over at her, with this face that just has ‘I’m tellin’ on you” all over it.
What do you think? Answer below!
It depends how far you go with it. Since negative reinforcement technically is as simple as saying NO when your dog does something you don’t like. But if you are talking about how people use prong collars or shock collars when they want a behavior stopped that’s different. I believe that is a last resort option for an aggressive dog. Not for any dog with issues but only those who are very strong and potentially violent and nothing else is working. Otherwise stick to rewarding training and more gentle commands when you are correcting behavior. I start out telling my dog NO or OFF, LEAVE IT, but if that does not work then I will go and physically make him do what I am asking ( like removing him from the couch ). But I don’t hit him or scream at him to make him do it – its not necessary.
I think it would actually be “positive punishment”. Which is adding a factor into training (such as a correction) to decrease the likelihood of a certain behavior happening again.
Some dogs are more responsive to a correction based training methods, and simply are just too stubborn to be 100% trained on a positive reinforcement only model. Compulsion would be teaching your dog that it is expected to behave exactly as you tell it to.
I don’t use it on my dog currently, mainly because we don’t have many places in this area that are not positive reinforcement based.
People and animal and especially dog respond well to a positive reward. It its fun and there is a reward a dog will learn and repeat the behavior. Fear is definitely not the way to go.
Call your dog to you and abuse him, you think he will come the next time? Call him and give him a treat and a good petting and he will come again for sure.
I think making a dog know theres consequences is VERY important.
I know for one, if I was just going to get rewarded for my good behaviour, and no punishment for mybad then I’d never do what my mum said.
For the most part, my dog responds better to positive. If i give him a treat for doing the opposite or right thing, he learns to do it. But when I say NO loudly, he gets scared and thinks Im going to like hurt him (he’s a chihuahua). Sometimes, it just depends on the dog. Its always how they respond. If it is happening really quickly and they are doing something bad, then def say NO or tell them to stop. But in the long run sometimes positive can be better
**EDIT*
Forgot to add, never do negative punishments that will hurt a dog. Like shock collars, or by hitting the dog. They will never learn, and it will only be out of fear. If you want a real relationship with your dog learn to discipline with positive (like clickers or treats or toys).
Let me tell you what happened with my aussie. She is very sweet, but when she was small she “tested” me. She had something she shouldn’t have had, a peach pit or something, and I said “drop it.” She had been trained the command, and what did she do? She turned around and ran away with it in her mouth. So what did I do? I chased her around the backyard like an idiot until I tackled her, wrenched whatever it was away from her, and for good measure, glared into her face. Then I got up and walked into the house… said nothing. She has never failed to listen to the drop it command since then.
But YES! If a dog has been trained, and they are giving you the paw, the dog needs a correction! Some dogs need a more obvious correction then others. A GSD may need a leash correction with a prong collar, and a mini schnauzer may only need a finger point. That is where training becomes the art… using positive reinforcement to train the dog, and then proof with the negative, and balancing what is the appropriate amount of force.
Wow, that feels disjointed, I hope it makes sense.
I strongly do not recommend or agree with the use of negative reinforcement in the training of my dogs. This will only frighten the dogs and if it is a puppy, it will grow up to have a lack in confidence, low in self-esteem and might even become aggressive! It is the same as for children. I do not believe anyone will use compulsion to teach his child!!
A certain amount of letting the dog know behavior is unacceptable is necessary. If you only distract the dog and give it treats, it will never understand what not to do. For example, our dogs know what “get out of the road” means when they are walking. We live in the country and when a car is coming, they know to sit on the side of the road. If we only distracted them, they would never understand where the edge of the road is and what behavior is expected.
On the other hand, I think shock collars are cruel and ineffective and every professional trainer I have known agrees.
use it quite a bit in training, used ecollar for recall with my stubborn girl, used prong for training heel. use it mostly once the dog knows the command 100% but chooses to ignore it when she feels like it, if that happens she gets a correction.
reward training for initially teaching a command and correction when proofing a command
for someone who said that shock collars are ineffective, has obviously never learned how to use one properly
i have known puppies who train on a prong for protection to get desensitized to a certain level of pain. they didn’t grow to be unconfident, in fact they are the most confident dogs you will find around. it really depends on a dog. some can’t handle the lowest setting on an ecollar and will run and hide under a desk, while another will not even blink when corrected at the highest level.
would love to see someone train a dog like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwJgnBQiJho
using purely positive training…
I am a firm believer in all dogs are different. different dogs will respond to different techniques better than others. it is up to you, the leader, to determine what works best for your dog(s). it is downright stupid to say one method works best for all dogs and another method won’t work.
There are occasions where I have to physically move my dog to make her do what I want (push her butt to the ground when she won’t sit ect.) but I find that for the most part she is too sensitive for negative reinforcement.
Basset Puppies gave me this link awhile back for giving an undesired ‘reward’ for bad behavior. It has worked miracles for me and I think has been the best negative correction I have ever found. The trick is the dog doesn’t see it as a punishment, just a consequence it doesn’t like and tries to avoid.
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/prize.htm
I usually compel behavior, and then reward compliance.
I think its simpler, sometimes, to just show the dog what you expect from him, and what he stands to gain, rather than waiting for him to figure it out. Ive looked at marker training, but I find it too intense for my purposes.
The level of compulsion depends on the dog. With a “soft” dog, it might be nothing more than a tug on the leash or a word. It doesnt have to be harsh.
Reward is not always something like a treat – reward can be something as simple as no pressure on the leash, or the dog getting to do what he wants to do….go for a walk, for example.
In my house, my dogs are required to sit and wait for my command before they go through the door. Nobody gets to go until everyone is sitting quietly. Once everyone obeys, then we get to go through the door.
I think less in terms of “bad” behavior, then discouraging undesirable behavior and encouraging desirable behavior.
I use motivational training to clearly teach a command, consistent practice to embed it & some form of compulsion training to ensure the dog responds first time, every time with distractions.
Though it was suggested and highly recommended in a Pit Bull Training Handbook “negative punishment and/or reinforcement” is withholding a treat or toy until the dog complies with your command.
Positive punishment/reinforcement is explained as adding something undesirable to the situation. ex: a verbal or physical correction.
So, after trying to follow this book with my APBT I became very frustrated.
I use positive reinforcement. I use my hand signals, a touch and verbal. I also use leash corrections. I demand immediate response when I give her a command.
I have said it before and I will say it again. Gaining respect with strong willed dogs such as Pits, requires a bit more than withholding a treat.
Well, since I see my name in here, I feel I also need to answer too.
I use whatever works on the dog to train a behavior, I prefer a toy because a toy motivated dog will be so much easier to deal with.
Once the dog learns that behavior, he gets to work it under distractions and then he gets proofed.
This is the only way to train a dog to be fully compliant in real life. Using compulsion has become a bad thing in this PC society we live in and you will find a lot of the newbies and the Stilwell disciples lose it when it is mentioned.
Frankly they know as much about training as I know about the space program…well, I know more about that program!!
There is nothing wrong with any tool used to teach a dog that when it is given a command it has one option and one option only, to obey that command whenever and however is given, regardless of any distractions present.
A prong collar, an Electric collar, a choker, whatever it is needed to perform that job, that is what is used for that particular dog, period!!
Different dogs have different correction threshholds and as a trainer you need to know what level of correction you will need to apply to the dog you are training!!
I use compulsion on every single dog I have ever trained and will continue to do so with every dog that I ever will train in the future.
It works, there are no negatives involved if you know what you are doing. As far as the comments about fear and the dog will be scared of you…this is what I believe in…there is a fine line between respect and fear…the dog needs to have a healthy amount of fear towards the results of his actions which will be made very clear to him dring training..if he chooses to listen, there are no negative results, if he does not, there will always be negative results.
I do not house dogs…I OWN dogs. Hope I helped!
-bows to Memphis Belle- You have achieved the level of Master young Grasshopper! There is nothing left to be taught, go spread your knowledge!!!
Her answer is excellent, there’s nothing to add to it.
I don’t know that I can make sense of the term, “Negative Reinforcement”. As a few have already explained…teach (by whatever positive means necessary), then proof it through compulsion. The only thing that kinda goes “outside” the normal steps would be “Indirect pressure”.
AS for Memphis Belle…great answer. Now comes the part where you have to pick up the 400 pound pot of baked beans so you can get your Dragon & Tiger brands on your arms! At least you won’t have to shave your head anymore.
Negative Reinforcement isn’t punishment for a bad behavior. It’s using a negative stimulus to get the correct behavior. Ex: Pulling up on a choke chain until your dog sits, and releasing the pressure once he sits.
I’ve used plenty of corrections. I’ve never really had to use negative reinforcement.